The problem with zionism as it always has been is for it to hold true you need to believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and that’s fairly lol
I think we’re just going in circles and/or talking past each other. I’m not suggesting Israel is unique; far from it, I agree that most/all countries on the planet would do the same in their shoes. We’ve done it across the Middle East, Russia did it in Chechnya, there’s tons more examples.
I’m saying that every country in that situation is still responsible for what they do in reprisal, even if it is universally accepted to make the same, morally bankrupt choice of killing way more of the other side in response.
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How many civilians is Israel allowed to kill before you say it is an unjustified response?
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Am I misremembering things, didn’t Hamas government officials publicly make some statement equivalent to declaring war on Israel? Sending in 3k troops is a pretty bona fide act of war and it’s obviously fucking hell to have a war in an impoverished urban setting
People make the 9/11 comparison but that seems ridiculously weak to me given Al Qaeda wasn’t an actual government operating 5 miles away and declaring war.
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You keep saying that, of course, Israel will have a devastating response to the recent attack by Hamas while people point out and criticize that this will kill a huge number of civilians. You shouldn’t emoji your way out of that.
Either you think that any number of civilian casualties is acceptable or you don’t which means you agree with the people you are arguing with.
What if it was? Say that Queens (which is actually a pretty close analogue to Gaza in both population & area) is actually the country of Qaedaistan, and they gleefully did 9/11 and declared war on us. What should we have done? Does it look like what Israel is doing to Gaza?
I think civilian deaths are unavoidable because of Hamas actions. I think Hamas purposely put their civilian population at risk so that they could do things like bind children to their parents and burn them alive. I also think that Hamas uses their civilian population for cover:
https://x.com/osinttechnical/status/1716210128678990294?s=46&t=N0_fcOKIYYmlCS2e4YShsQ
If Hamas truly gave a flying shit about their civilian population, they wouldn’t have made any of the choices they have recently. Spare me the one sided blame for civilian deaths in Gaza.
Yeah I mean I have no idea the right way to respond to that (or this), seems like a complete shit show to fight a war with the government of an urban city state. Like if the local government of Queens genuinely sent 3k government employees to shoot up Manhattan while shooting thousands of missiles I honestly see no easy way to disarm that government? Like it seems like a fucking unsolvable problem
Yes, Hamas bad. Unavoidable just means more than zero. How many civilians does Israel get to kill before they are similarly bad?
When Israel goes into the Gaza with go pros on to livestream them mowing down kids going to a rave they will be just as bad.
There are more than 2 million people in the Gaza Strip. Israel gets to kill them all as long as they don’t do it in uncouth way? Well, I disagree.
Please at least try to be a little honest. Seriously.
You’re the one dodging the central issue whether there is anything that Israel could do that makes their response unacceptable. If the number of dead civilians is not a criteria for you then I can’t take your position seriously.
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On 5-4, they remark a lot about how conservative justices writing opinions or dissents on criminal justice cases will often open them with a graphic description of the crime at the heart of the case, because they can’t justify the erosion of the guarantees our constitution grants to criminal defendants without first establishing that the defendant was, in fact, very bad.
It would be more useful for you to just say you refuse to answer Louis’s question than to give the responses you gave above, and then accuse people of dishonesty when they point out the logical conclusion of those same responses.
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No im not. I’m refusing to answer some bullshit question about the total number of allowed civilian deaths. Israel is allowed to go after Hamas. What the line of acceptable behavior is exactly is easily up for debate. What it definitely isn’t is a arbitrary line that assumes Israeli responsibility for civilian deaths
It’s not a bullshit question to the people dying right this minute.
This is literally a logical fallacy
I mean this seems like a pretty hard question for a layperson to give an informed response? Like I have no idea how many civilian deaths would be expected if Ukraine tries to reclaim Crimea. I assume it’s not zero.
The number of victims of the recent Hamas is between 1500-2000. When all will be said and done there will also be a number of Palestinian killed. That number might be higher than 2000. What if it is much higher? 10000? 20000?
We don’t need to be precise. As you said we are laypersons but there has to be a point where we have to judge the Israeli response as excessive and unjustified.