I clicked over there, seeing the Yuv post about almost everyone in the country knowing of someone who died kinda put things in perspective to me about how bad the situation is as far as trying to rein in Israel. Feels like trying to imagine if 9/11 was proudly and publicly perpetuated by the government of Newark or something.
Well this not looking hopeful. Imagine if Poland had done this for Ukrainian border. (Made me curious and looks 14 million refugees have crossed that border) ETA- 14 million seems high, maybe that counts multiple trips for same people?
Iām starting to think whatās going to happen is theyāre going to completely level the northern segment of Gaza, close it off with a new fence/wall, and confine the Palestinians there to the Southern ~half. Theyāll say itās necessary to secure/protect border towns. God knows how many civilians this will kill, but theyāll say they gave fair warning, etc.
There will probably be a few hundred Palestinians killed in the West Bank too, and the Western world will shrug that off as well.
When the dust settles theyāll be even harsher on whatās left of Gaza, and around and round weāll go until Hamas decides to carry out another atrocity and another round of awfulness happens.
Here is something I am struggling with: it definitely seems to me that much of the anti-Israel sentiment (not here, Iām talking about in the general public discourse) is based on the idea that Jews donāt belong in that area at all, and that they just showed up one day and kicked out people to whom it had always belonged. From my understanding of the subject, the real answer to that is extremely complicated, but that Jewish people are in fact indigenous to the area. So it makes it somewhat uncomfortable to say āWhat Israel is doing in Gaza right now is wrong and they should stopā (which is how I feel) when the vast majority of the other people saying that follow it (explicitly or implicitly) with āand the Jews should get out of the area and give everything back to the Palestiniansā.
It seems to be a fact that Israel will literally never be accepted as legitimate by its neighbors (and by a huge portion of people everywhere), and will always be involved in some form of cold or hot war.
Obviously people here are capable of saying āIsrael should not commit genocideā while also - I think - acknowledging the legitimacy of the state of Israel. Am I correct about that?
In my case you are, and I assume that goes for most/all here. I think Jewish people have as much right to live in that area as basically anyone has anywhere. They have a long history there. So do the Palestinians. Itās a tragedy that a peaceful solution canāt be found for both.
Yeah I was thinking about this in the context of thinking about indigenous people elsewhere and makes it feel unsolvable. Like does the fact that Romans/Persians/etc controlled the land for over a thousand years or whatever invalidate a indigenous land claim? Seems unimaginably complicated, like what if in 500 years a million Seminoles showed up in Florida?
I hate this entire situation, and the cherry on top of the shit sundae is Trump crowing about how heād never have let this happen. Iām dreading the poll that shows 80%+ believe this only happened because of Biden.
Why shoot at your own people and blame Israel, when Israel is already doing it? Also doesnāt change anything about the atrocities both sides are/have carried out.
While thereās always a group of people that will hold any opinion imaginable, I feel like the opinion Iāve seen expressed the most from the corner of the left I follow is that āthe occupation must endā, which (I think?) means free Palestinian control of the West Bank and Gaza but not all of Israel.
Among people with some knowledge of history and the depth of this conflict, I think thatās true. And I think thatās like 10% of people, but thatās a guess.
technically israel isnāt occupying gaza (not really sure what the west bank situation is, it seems there really isnāt a contiguous āwest bankā geographical area anymore because israel has turned it into swiss cheese with settlers (another war crime).
israel ended the gaza occupation about 15 years ago and since then itās been āunder blockadeā (i.e. a concentration camp).
This makes it sound like Hamas themselves told Egypt not to let people flee? Or is NYT adding that in as their interpretation?
āā
Hamasās top political official, Ismail Haniyeh, said in a televised speech that āthere will be no migration from Gaza to Egypt,ā and hinted that Egyptās opposition to opening its borders to Palestinians in the neighboring Strip is in coordination with Hamasās decision āto stay in our land.ā He added that Egypt āwelcomes the Palestinian people, but not on the basis of migration or an exodus.ā
I donāt think Iād heard of Hamilton Nolan a few months ago, but I keep seeing his pieces linked here and there on various subjects (mostly labor) and heās very good. Here he talks about the annoying moral certainty and self-righteousness of youth, and where it exposes a real failure by the elite class: