A prosector is faced with the case of a woman. let’s just for the pure sake of argument assume she has been raped, by a man. and we know who it is. and he even said he was going to rape her. and then he did.
If i then say this man is absolved of this rape, purely by virtue of the fact he said so and she looked like she maybe should have been raped - or possibly by innocent mistake - you, mr prosecutor, would say that isn’t blaming the victim?
Hint: it’s not the civilian’s problem the IDF is indiscriminately killing civilians. hope that helps.
This continues to be a really fucking stupid analogy. Literally nobody is saying that “yeah the hostages looked like maybe they should have been killed” because of the way they were dressed or whatever.
You realize that by absolving any responsibility of idf on the indiscriminate, well documented killing of civilians the last 2 months, you are blaming the victim here? Should I inline quote @CaffeineNeeded ’s post here to further demonstrate my point? Am I taking insane pills?
lol like he literally uses the word “arab” to describe the people involved in this conflict which is propaganda and offensive to the people who actually are describing their situation here. he’s telling on himself.
Not blaming the IDF for accidentally shooting hostages during close quarters combat != not blaming IDF for civilian casualties in the wider war. Do you think I’ve been an Israeli apologist in this thread too? You’re way off base here.
Let’s seriously take a sanity check here and cut the gaslighting instinct for just a hot sec.
I cant blame idf for shooting hostages because of hamas is not absolving the idf? Is that how I am supposed to proceed in my responses here so that [mod edited] here doesn’t take too much offense?
You’re talking about “purposely start a war to submarine the peace process with other Arab actors”? Is “Arab” offensive in that context when referring broadly to Middle Eastern countries? I wouldn’t ordinarily think so but idk.
But yeah I don’t really think this analogy is a hill to die on; the “woman” in this instance would be…Palestinian civilians? But we’re not talking about an instance where Palestinian civilians got killed? I don’t think it’s a good analogy.
Yeah. By contrast, the IDF is absolutely going to be at fault for the hostages who were killed because of their bombing practices in Gaza. I’m going to guess that those numbers are going to be higher than three. Hamas is also at fault though. They’re both at fault. The only ones who aren’t at fault are the civilians, on both sides.
For real. I got a ton of sympathy for anyone on the ground making literal life and death calls for themselves and everyone around them. The people who created that situation to be necessary are at fault, and that’s Hamas.
I’ll requote here [mod edit: if you have an issue with moderation, take it to private messages]
What is this supposed to mean then?
Again, am I huffing paint? vastly more official deaths are kids and non-combatants than actual hamas and we’re all in here like “well gee shucks cant blame idf for this what else are they to do”
fuck you and any israel/IDF apologists both-sides bullshit.
This is a very black and white take that isn’t at all reasonable. Yes Hamas is responsible for the attacks that kicked this particular round off, but the person really responsible for the entire present state of play is Bibi full stop and he’s the Israeli Prime Minister not the leader of Hamas… and the people taking the significant brunt of the consequences of his policies are Palestinian not Israeli.
There really isn’t a right to retaliate when the big reason you got attacked is that you’ve been doing some very creative oppression for the last couple of decades and actively funded and promoted a terrorist organization to undermine the group you’ve been doing the oppression to so that you never have to worry about legitimate peace talks ever again. It certainly doesn’t justify dropping a fuckton of dumb bombs on a densely populated area and cutting off food/water/electricity.
Small picture you’re right big picture you’re super wrong.
Jmakin’s take is super simplistic too. He wants the Israeli’s to turn the other cheek in a very unrealistic way forever and honestly seems like he doesn’t think Israel has a right to exist… and won’t acknowledge that the one of the biggest reasons we’re here is that the Palestinians didn’t take a genuinely pretty decent deal in the mid 90’s. You also don’t seem to recognize that every time the Israeli’s have lifted the boot a little bit what they’ve gotten in return was waves of rocket attacks etc. In a place where people vote for their political leaders that’s a political disaster for the people who lifted the boot, and if you can’t see how that’s relevant I don’t know what to tell you. It’s a huge part of how we got here.
I don’t think there’s a way to take either side in any intelligent way. I think the leadership of the Palestinians has been absolutely the nut low since the 1940’s and I think the Israeli’s have a pretty significant portion of the population that has been salivating over the remaining land they could take from the Palestinians this entire time. I think the conservative/reactionary politicians on both sides have created really optimal conditions for a fucking genocide in 2023 and the entire situation is a huge tragedy no matter how you choose to look at it.
You’re both pretty significantly wrong in pretty significant ways because you want there to be some righteous path here. There isn’t. Everyone sucks everyone is disgusting everyone is complicit. The Israeli’s, all their neighbors (honestly the neighbors are the MOST responsible IMO), and the Palestinians themselves (their leaders, obviously I’m not blaming a bunch of kids for being in the way of falling dominoes that were started falling before they were even born, the Hamas leadership hiding in their luxury hotels in Qatar were in their 30’s in the 90’s) are all so responsible that all the blood is on all of their hands.
This isn’t a sporting event it’s a genocide. You don’t get to root for anyone. The right stance is one of profound mourning and sadness about the situation and the only message you can give to anyone involved is to fucking stop what they are doing to contribute to the situation being this.
I don’t have solidarity or sympathy for anyone in this situation who isn’t a civilian with strong pro peace political views. Literally everyone else can go fuck themselves and is a part of the problem.
No, hamas was not forced to run a modern day pogrom. Hamas made a purposeful play here to stop Israel from making peace with other countries. It wasn’t Israeli mistreatment or some other factor in play that caused them to do this. They purposesly provoked a reaction from Israel to cause strife in the Middle East, at the cost of their own society, to stop Israel from making peace with another Arab nation
The rest of the post is arguing against me saying there’s some righteous state actor for the whole conflict, which is not something I believe or said.
I’ve literally only talked about the small picture in this conversation about who is responsible for the death of hostages shot at Israel tries to get them back. That responsibility is on Hamas, especially when it’s the IDF troops clearing rooms
You are having an argument that no one else is. This started in talking about the 3 hostages who were killed by IDF. That’s all the “fog of war” side has been talking about, this one situation, these 3 hostages. You’ve extended these 3 hostages to be all civilians in Gaza. No one else here has. The IDF’s treatment of civilians is an entirely different conversation than what happened to those hostages. At least it is to everyone except you.