I don’t agree with this, I guess my carriage turns back into a pumpkin too? I don’t agree with many of the takes CN is posting, I definitely think Bibi and the IDF have gone way over the line, but I also don’t agree that reasonable people can’t disagree over a topic like this, and I don’t think it makes them an asshole if they do.
This situation sucks all around, from every side, and from every angle.
I mean, you’ve got the UN special rapporteur, Amnesty International, and the International Court of Justice calling this genocide or a “failure to prevent” genocide. Not really sure what the second one could possibly mean, because if not Israel, who’s causing the genocide?
Anyway, I think if you asked anyone here a year ago what groups they would consider to be independent experts on whether something is a genocide, the UN and Amnesty would be named by almost everyone. So I think that when they’re calling it that, it is pretty simple.
The conflict overall is way more complicated, but it’s pretty simple that genocide is taking place.
Out of curiosity, can you find a post that says that in the past three months? If not seems like you owe me an apology.
You’re right buddy, you got me on the semantics. You haven’t explicitly said you support genocide. You’ve only repeatedly defended them when others have brought up the genocide, with some whataboutism.
Naturally, you don’t go with outright genocide denial on behalf of the IDF. You just barrage us with “Hamas tho” every time anyone accuses the IDF of genocide. Even a charitable reading would suggest that you don’t think what the IDF has done has risen to the level of evil of what Hamas did (which no one is calling genocide, “merely” an atrociious, evil terrorist attack), which makes it pretty reasonable to infer that you don’t think the IDF is committing genocide.
Right the part where we disagree is that I think it was complicated but the Israeli’s have simplified things considerably through their choices. Now it’s very simple and getting steadily simpler as they dig the moral hole they’re in deeper.
Get out of the hole now dude you don’t want to own any of it. It’s going to get a lot worse and you don’t want to have to deal with the ramifications of that if you stay tethered to it further.
I’m talking about the moral/psychological ramifications of eating that much cognitive dissonance on behalf of a genocide. That’s the kind of thing that curdles your soul. Don’t get me wrong there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism and all of our souls have plenty of smudges I’m sure, but this isn’t a necessary hit to take. Just cut ties with the ‘Israel is a generally good place with generally good people in it’ because they’re going to look worse than white South Africans when this over and the stink will never come off those people lol.
Yes wookie, it’s almost like I feel that Israeli actions are over-criticized while Palestinians are given a pass for various reasons. I also feel like Israel could make a longer peace right now after one election while Palestine is nowhere close.
Turns out, that’s very different from supporting genocide and an apology is in order
I just haven’t done it.
like, yeah, it’s not relevant to some weird version of this discussion that only exists in your head, anyway, like most threads where you do this dumb act, there’s zero point in engaging with you further
You haven’t defended Israel’s genocidal actions repeatedly with whataboutism? Lol come onnnnn. This isn’t gonna work on anyone who’s been reading this thread.
And spare me the ninja edits to make yourself look better.
like, just last thing here, you have like three people in this thread all telling you the EXACT SAME THING about what you’re doing here, and we all noticed it within MINUTES of each other, and this doesn’t cause you to slow down and reflect on ANYTHING at all, just keep ramming the gas full steam ahead. Beyond help at this point.
The CaffeineNeeded Experience. Except in threads where he’s an actual expert, then it plays a little differently.
The stuff we currently know about what has happened in this conflict already makes the IDF and Likud look like they are carrying out a genocide that will very likely end up in front of the ICC. I strongly suspect the additional stuff we find out about what happened here over the next few years is going to be revolting stuff.
I know there are people who think we shouldn’t talk about this super super openly here… but a few of you I’m genuinely worried for. People are really heated up about this out there in the real world. People will judge you for some of these opinions. Some of you remember similar stuff happening in the past where you lost tons of respect for people because of opinions they had about specific events… I consider many of the people here friends and I’m warning you… you want to be on the right side of history on this particular one. It’s going to be very hard to explain how you were on the wrong side of it.
This is the fundamental problem with the line Israel has taken. They took something incredibly complicated that having a semi educated opinion about was fashionable, but you could really take either side and it was fine, into something very simple and very ugly. Being pro Israel right now is pretty fucking gross… and the Israeli government did that through the choices they made. You’re the frog in the pot of boiling water. You need to reassess the situation.
To the Israeli people’s credit they seem to be starting to freak out about it.
I think there are some people autopiloting their opinions based on history, without critically re-evaluating the most recent actions and it’s a horrible time to be on autopilot based on the history there.
Once again you are conflating Hamas with Palestinians in general.
I’m honestly not sure how to go best about that. I’ve previously talked about things going back over other regimes. I don’t think hamas would be able to operate the way they do if they didn’t have some support either, but obviously I’m also certain there are a majority of people who want to just live their lives as well.
Also, there’s a whole line of thinking that they shouldn’t be separated, and that Hamas shouldn’t be criticized because it’s a simple reaction to a colonizer. I don’t think anyone here shares that opinion though.
That’s a fair point though, and I’ll try to make it clearer in the future.
Real talk the only difference in my behavior here and in the covid thread is that you agreed with my position in the covid thread. Your reaction wildly varies though, seems like that’s something you should think about.
This is an important note to expand on. The median age in Gaza is 18, and somewhere around 75% of Gazans are below 35 - the age required to have voted in 2006. Hamas got 44% in 2006, so somewhere around 11% of current Gazans voted for Hamas in 2006. Thus around 89% did not.
Holding current Palestinian civilians responsible for electing Hamas is absurd.
Jesus, no one has said that here
Not always, but I deferred to your expertise if I didn’t. Like I agreed about vaccination obviously. My reaction to what varies wildly?