I’m baffled that you give Israel zero agency. They could just not kill all those Palestinian civilians. The only justification they could offer is that they value 50 Palestinian lives less than the freedom of 1 Israeli. They and you clearly do and I do not.
no idea why yall are still engaging ikes on this dumb point, he’s a broken record and has been mindlessly spewing this exact shit for months
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I absolutely do give them agency. I also think that a hostage rescue mission is more than reasonable.
Would it be reasonable if the rescue killed 100k civilians? Or it just a blank check to kill unlimited civilians if their leaders do something bad?
It’s not unlimited civilians, and per Yuv at UP, they were being held by “civilians”.
I’m sorry guys but if you believe that Israel indiscriminately killed 200 people totally not involved in the hostage taking while safely getting the hostages, you’re being played for a fool. It leaves Israel with no realistic options to save their people, and it’s absurd
Wild that if Hamas managed to free like 30 Palestinian political prisoners on Oct 7 the whole attack would apparently have been fine (I don’t believe that’s true, but others sure seem to!)
Gift link: WaPo: More than 200 Palestinians killed in Israeli hostage raid in Gaza
NYT’s reporting on the raid is similar. To be as much of an Israel apologist and stan as you requires at this point believing the two largest national newspapers in the US are beholden to Hamas propaganda, but thanks for stopping by and somehow suggesting others are “being played for fools”
https://x.com/FranceskAlbs/status/1799503174933372999
I guess Hamas’s war crimes are now justified because Israel is committing war crimes (again, I don’t agree with this, but that’s been the broken logic of many others)
Gantz resigned (quote is from WaPo quick update, don’t think they have a full story yet)
Yawn
Let’s all take a deep breath here. This is not a simple or black and white topic. Reasonable people can disagree on both sides of this issue that reasonable people have tried and failed to solve for almost 100 years. I’ve removed some over the top personal attacks, everyone should just pause and take a breath.
Edit: To be clear, I’ve removed the personal attacks from both sides of this argument.
What do you think this refutes? I don’t dispute that they are Palestinian.
So hamas took hostages, held them in a civilian area likely using civilians to hold them. They then engaged with rpgs and etc on Israelis as they were leaving… in a civilian area, and Israeli conducted airstrikes in support after.
Yeah fuck hamas.
The Israel-haters refuse to accept that they care more about Palestinian strangers than Hamas cares about Palestinian strangers.
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That’s irrelevant to whether or not Israel’s actions have been acceptable, and one can criticize Israel’s recent actions without being an “Israel hater.” Nobody here supports Hamas.
Do you think there “Israel Haters” in this thread? From the beginning almost everyone has been critical of Hamas, I mean they committed a massive terror attack. If the US were shipping Hamas RPGs I guarantee this thread wouldn’t be happy about that.
As far as I can see nobody in this thread needs convincing that Hamas doing terror attacks is bad so the focus is on debating how the US should approach the issue while minimizing deaths of both Israeli and Palestinians.
Yeah not a single word has been said by anyone in support of that terrorist organization. At the same time we can acknowledge that Israel has been doing everything possible to create the kinds of vibes in Gaza that terrorist organizations thrive in, and that they’ve provided quite a bit of tangible support to Hamas over the years. The reason that’s scandalous and bad is that Hamas is a terrorist organization and helping them is, as a result, obviously bad. It’s your job as a government to try to remove the conditions that make it possible for a terrorist organization to take root and thrive anywhere close to you.
Tell your Israeli friends that nobody is buying their bullshit this time. Nobody. You tried to keep a pet terrorist organization and then somehow let them carry out a massive terrorist attack. That’s what your government did. The Palestinian people hate you because you’re white people stealing their land and that’s not an unreasonable position to take. The power imbalance between Israel and the Palestinians tilts the ethical calculations in a way that isn’t workable. You kept a pet Grizzly Bear so you wouldn’t have to negotiate with the PLO and it bit you. I’m enormously sympathetic to the victims but to Israeli society as a whole? Kinda seems like they fucked around and found out.
There’s plenty of blame to go around and I fully blame Hamas and I ESPECIALLY blame the leadership of the neighboring arab countries who have every bit as much blood on their hands here as the Israeli’s for how they’ve handled this over the decades.
But the mask is fully off now and we can never go back to the way it was. Once upon a time this was a topic about which reasonable people could disagree. Today I agree with that as long as you’re willing to acknowledge the reality that the Israeli government are the primary villains in this chapter of the story because there isn’t a single part of it that doesn’t have their finger prints all over it up to and including the massive security failure that kicked this round off. If Bibi wasn’t a moron he would have been right and Hamas would have been contained and this could have never happened. But no, he was wrong and it resulted in a bunch of heavily armed justifiably pissed lunatics getting turned loose on a bunch of civilians essentially resulting in the same vibe as a giant longer running mass shooting with tons of shooters and tons of rape. It was really bad. And it was 85-90% Bibi’s fault minimum.
If you don’t agree with the above facts I don’t really care what you think about the whole situation. You’re stupid, you’re a racist/classist and don’t care about dead poor/brown people at all (like you must value them at less than 20% of a white westerner), or you’ve made a conscious choice not to pay attention. The people arguing about this with me can’t claim the third one and I don’t talk to stupid people about anything. Which is why I’ve given a bunch of you the benefit of the doubt and stopped reading your posts entirely.
This is a mostly left wing board. Bibi is evil should not be a controversial take. And you can’t take Bibi = Evil while simultaneously saying the Israeli line has been justified. That’s the most mealy mouthed thing in the whole goddamn universe in the face of tens of thousands of murdered children. It’s really fucking gross. The median Palestinian is a kid that wasn’t alive the last time there was a sliver of hope and has essentially zero responsibility for any of this and that’s whose picking up the entire tab for this mess.
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I agree with this proposition, it sounds like CW does too. You seem so certain about what your opponents believe despite being completely wrong about it.
What conclusions are we supposed to draw from the proposition you present here, that you clearly think is incompatible with our beliefs?
Undeniably, yes. I specifically did not say “Jew haters,” so those who frequently express animus towards Israel can’t cry that they’re being called antisemites.
I’m astounded you think there are no Israel haters here.