Yes pvn because we were talking about Israel as an apartheid state, it doesn’t imply integration is the only solution.
The Arabs in Gaza can only vote their way to Jewish genocide if they are joined by Israeli Arabs. Point is that what Sharon’s people feared from the “demographics is destiny” argument was the country becoming one big melting point and the country losing its “Jewish character.” Not directly about physical safety.
So now instead we have “the demographics is destiny” working the other way, with the religious nut jobs outfucking the secular Jews and making the country more and more right wing.
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The original “two state” solution might have been viable at one point. Unfortunately, neither side wanted it.
I’m sorry but this is just not true
Nah, because the oath keepers and proud boys aren’t actually under attack, it’s just in their heads, whereas these settlers currently actually are.
There is only one solution. The slow eradication of Palestine and Palestinians. Just like the American Indians. It’s really sad. But there isn’t anything else that’s going to happen.
I believe many of them may be happy to be living as a minority in a prosperous Jewish state. Doesn’t mean the Gaza residents want this option, nor does it mean that any Arab is going to want to be living in a “Jewish” state if they become the majority of the population.
This is exactly what happened at the conclusion of the American Civil War; it’s a crucial part of our country’s history that we did exactly that.
re: not tolerating peace in the situation Gazans live in - sure, ok. If peace is even remotely something anyone is interested in (questionable), shouldn’t Israel work towards improving that situation, seeing as their blockade is the largest reason for it?
I disagree that is true, and I know Israel doesn’t think that
The West Bank isn’t under attack.
I thought that the Jews were willing to accept a two-state plan prior to the Arab countries attacking en masse the moment the Brits were gone.
I mean sure this is the only possible destination when the so called reasonable West is like totes get why our civilized Israeli friends cannot accept “one man, one vote” living amongst savages.
A couple sources I’ve checked (see WSJ, Al-Jazeera) suggest attacks have all been in Israel near Gaza, and not on West Bank settlers. Using the attacks from Gaza as a pretext to hand out military rifles to the group of people responsible for this page seems pretty dark.
To be clear, sure there would be lots of violence no matter what. But yeah, the dude straight up said the Palestinians are doing the demographic genocide on us so we are going to seal 2mm of them off and I know this is going to set the peace process back at least 25 years but worth it!
And our reasonable Westerner is like yeah, makes sense to me. Those dastardly Palestinians are indeed fucking too much, left the Israelis no choice.
Yes if the Black people had selected themselves by leaving the US while it was being invaded by some foreign power (made up of people from Africa to make this comparison work) on the understanding that they would get the whites land when they came back after it was all over.
A crucial part of the reason the Palestinians have totally unrealistic expectations eighty years in is that their leaders have been promising them total victory since they made the massively wrong decision eighty years ago.
There are 1.7M Muslim Israeli citizens, and the difference between them and the Palestinians is mostly they didn’t pick the wrong side in 1948.
I really cannot stress enough that the Palestinians were utterly defeated militarily in 1948 and have been militarily defeated every 5-10 years ever since but they still maintain that they’re going to eradicate Israel. When I call them unrealistic this is what I’m talking about. And it’s not like some other Arab country is going to come in and save them, those same Arab countries have been refusing to take them in for 80 years and have all tangled with the Israeli’s and lost badly. There is just zero basis in reality for them ‘getting back their homeland’.
For the Palestinian people the best case outcome was integration into Israel as Israeli citizens, something that might have been achievable if they hadn’t refused to accept that the war hadn’t been close. And of course the sunk cost fallacy has kept them anchored into an impossible set of negotiation points ever since.
Now eighty years in, a single state solution is never ever going to happen. Way too much blood spilled on both sides and if you thought they hated each other in the 50’s…
My main point is that no matter how many times they pretend to be totally innocent victims the Palestinians have been active participants in this nightmare the entire eighty years. When the Israeli’s have managed to find the political capital to elect pro peace governments, which has happened more than once, the Palestinians have routinely humiliated those pro peace governments and in so doing have brought us to today’s situation.
Again I’m not letting the right wing Israeli’s off the hook, particularly the nutjob religious right of the country who somehow (I’m not kidding) live on welfare, study the torah their entire lives, do not participate in the military (and in a country with compulsory military service this religious exemption is BULLSHIT on SEVERAL LEVELS since they keep voting for other people’s kids to be ordered to carry out atrocities in the name of their ‘settlement’ ethnic cleansing campaign) and generally are entirely leeches on an otherwise pretty impressive country. They also view the scripture as a land contract.
Yeah that’s Bibi’s base. You thought our right wing nutjobs were annoying and a problem lol.
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General note for the thread: please try to remember that everyone here is participating in good faith about a very difficult & inflammatory issue. I appreciate the ability to engage with & question people who might hold different opinions from me, but we have to generally be nice to each other for that to work.
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Trying to assign blame percentages here is a fool’s errand.
Hard for Israel to make peace with groups that expressly call for the existential elimination of Israel.
Right wing Israelis doing settlement and apartheid type shit.
The Arab neighbors shunning the Palestinians. More than enough oil money to take care of the poverty situation. Let alone Iran and Russia as bad actors.
Western powers generally supporting the more extreme Israeli positions.
And last of all religion. Fucking religion as an excuse for all of this. To justify all the horrible actions. To inflame masses to hate and continue to fight each other for millennia.
(All sides basically. We are a dumb species).
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This is an accurate high level take.
I don’t think any of us here have answers. It’s so easy to cross over various lines wo realizing it.
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man even when you explicitly use the word it doesn’t connect does it